The Dealer Playbook
The Dealer Playbook

Episode · 2 months ago

Chris Voss: You Can Learn To Negotiate With Anyone

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

[REPLAY]

Chris Voss is an internationally-acclaimed negotiation expert, Masterclass instructor, best-selling author, and former FBI hostage negotiator. In this episode replay, Chris shares valuable insights about how anyone can learn to negotiate and create win/win scenarios in business and life.

What we discuss in this episode:

  • The importance of negotiation, and how to do it in a way that creates a win/win for all parties. 
  • Visual cues that will help you understand what someone else is feeling so that you can address their needs and serve them more effectively
  • Chris shares stories and anecdotes that help explain how anyone can learn to negotiation and how esepcially valuable negotiation is for car sales professionals to master

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Thanks, Chris Voss

If you enjoyed this conversation with Chris Voss, please let him know by clicking on the links below and sending him a message.

...the car business is rapidly changingand modern car dealers are meeting the demand. I'm Michael Cirillo andtogether we're going to explore what it takes to create a thriving dealershipand life in the retail automotive industry join me each week forinspiring conversations with subject matter experts that are designed tohelp you grow. This is the dealer playbook. Yeah. Mhm. You can learn to effectively negotiateand effectively communicate. Yeah, 1000%. I mean a couple of separateissues on the argument E Q versus I. Q. This is an EQ skill and there are thosethat argue that we can continue to build our EQ throughout our lives.Daniel Coyle wrote an interesting book called The Talent Code and coil, prettymuch contends that any skill is learning bubble if you put in the time.So yeah, you can learn it if you put in the time. Yeah. What led you from beingthe FBI and doing this successfully for as long as you did to then where you'reat now where you're working with business leaders and businesses andorganizations to teach them these skills in the process of trying to getbetter as an FBI hostage negotiator, I wanted to look for other areas to getbetter from outside of law enforcement. And so I approached the guys at theHarvard at Harvard Law School to Harvard program on negotiation and said,hey, you guys want to collaborate and as far as they were concerned, thehostage negotiators, you know, kind of a singing and dancing monkey. They werehappy to come and see if I could sing and dance. And so, you know, I got upthere and brilliant people up there, very smart pushing negotiations forwardand they were just starting to scratch the surface on emotional intelligenceas a negotiation skill and they said, look, you're doing the same stuff we'redoing, it's exactly the same. Dynamics, problems, issues, stresses the contextis different, but the problems are the same. And so when I went through thereas, as a student in our exercises, I mean, I wasslaughtering the Harvard Law School students, which it was no, I got no oneto pleasure out of that, not being smart enough to ever have gotten intoHarvard Law School in the first place. It was, it was at the light and on topof that, not only were they smarter than me, but I always loved beatinglawyers than anything that had to do with words. Anyway, so there was noshortage of benefits there. Right? And so, you know, when I thinkof your book, uh never split the difference, which we're gonna be givingaway copies of to those that are listening, uh, stay tuned for the endof the episode, I'm gonna tell you how you can get your hands on a copy ofthat book, but it's really about getting away, I'm gonna I'm gonnagive I'm gonna give away too loyal...

...listeners Yes, can you believe it? Whoam I? Who is this guy? I know, uh now we're also going to include a link forthose that don't qualify for the free free cup. Yes. Um, but you know, one ofthe things that I love about your book is that it's really, you know, I thinkof it as this like tactical field guide because you can almost turn to any pagein that book and go, okay, uh, you know, now I'm thinking about this a littlebit differently, but you really kind of get a sense of, you know, as I readthrough the pages, I kind of got a sense of, oh man, there's a lot ofthings in my business and my organization and my communication thatI could improve upon. But I'm curious to know from your vantage point whatare as you're working with all these businesses and speaking and consultingwhat are some of the common challenges you see facing that organizations faceor businesses face? And maybe one or two things that they could do afterlistening to this to really go and start improving their situation. Themost common challenge really is the yes addiction like people, so many peopleare crackheads for. Yes, I mean they're just, and it's the only thing they wantto hear and they are scared of hearing anything else and they're scared to letthe other side talk because the other side might say no or the other sidemight, you know, I mean, it's just crazy people get so focused on. Yes,they get complete tunnel vision, You know what one of our, one of oursayings, one of the rules that we live by is never be so sure of what you want,that you wouldn't take something better. Mm Well if you're so focused on yes,you are never going to see anything better. You know, you're gonna do yourhomework, you're gonna, you run all these games in your head, you run, youknow, you run rackets in your head, you run all sorts of crazy outcomes in yourhead, muslim or negative and then you just gotta talk, you gottapitch, you're really afraid of what the other side has to say. It's if you canget out of that, your negotiation ability will leap forward exponentially is there is there such a thing as goingtoo far in the opposite direction? Where, I mean, you see a lot ofbusinesses and specifically car dealerships, retail dealerships whereuh they're almost a no culture. Like nothing is welcome. It's like my way orthe highway, is there, is there too far? You can go in that direction. Is therea happy middle ground or what's your take? It's another version of being,having tunnel vision being inflexible of being so sure of what you want toyou and take something better? Right? So, you know, you got and one ofone of the realities of the situation, which is hard for a lot of people whorealizes there's always a better deal to be had. There's always a better dealno matter how smart you are. I mean Warren Buffett, one of smartest dudeson the planet, he goes to the table and...

...the first thing he does is shut up andthen he shuts up some more because as smart as he is, as much as he reads, asmuch research as he and his team do, he knows the other side is always inpossession of information that he doesn't have and he wants to find outwhat it is because he knows it's going to change his calculations. And sothat's why the first smart move is to shut up. The other side is dying totalk. Anyway, let them talk, find out what they know, find out how you canmake the deal better. It kind of reminds me, I think I waswatching, oh shoot and I can't remember what video it was, you were doing apresentation and you were talking about an experience, you had walking into abar With three of your other hostage negotiator colleagues. And there was aguy there that basically said, you know, you're not sitting here, I'm gonna beatyou up or something like that and you guys basically turn that entiresituation around by just deploying some simple, essentially showing anddemonstrating your willingness to listen to this guy and he justbasically became an open book and first of all, I'm glad you finish that storybecause the story of me walking into a bar as are a lot of stories you got toget a lot more specific than that. Well I'm glad at first I was like, oh crapdid I just, I just killed the punchline, but you know, I think I can't rememberwho said it, but but one of the, one of the most valuable things I think I'velearned in in sales is exactly what you just said, which is you have two yearsand one mouth used them proportionately well and you know, somebody evenrefined that for me one time fairly recently and I wish I would havethought this up, But really you got two ears, two eyes and a nose, so youshould be listening, observing five times as much as you talk, not twice asmuch as you talk because you know, they're going to give you visual cues,You read the person's body language while you're talking and the nose,that's you know, that's kind of your instinct. I mean the accumulation ofall your senses, your intuition, your observations of micro um cues and cluesthat you get that you might not be completely aware of in the moment, butyou're starting to get a gut instinct feeling. And so yeah, you should reallyreally start to rely on your gut instinct and then then the issue is howdo you properly deal with it after that, which is what we tell people. And wellyou said I love the description of the book. It's an actionable field guybecause that's exactly what it is. Yeah. And I mean listen, when whenthose of you listening get your hands on this, you're going to go, oh crap,where has this been my whole life? It really does. I got that sense. I waslike, oh man, like this is just everything about this is just makes somuch more more sense. And I start thinking of things differently and toyour point even now refining my my belief this whole time about two yearsand one mouth using proportionately. I'm thinking even now in differentperspective of how I can bring more to...

...the table when when in a negotiation.But it's interesting because especially in the car industry, there'sthis this sometimes black cloud that hangs over the industry as a wholebecause people don't like the negotiation process. And so it kind ofbecomes this one sided thing where it's we know customer doesn't want tonegotiate and we because we know that we keep trying to come up withdifferent things to say different things to do different things, but it'sreally just us doing all the talking to try and get in front of theirapprehensive nous, you would suggest try and figure out how to turn thataround. Let them do the talking figure out how to open them up. Absolutely getthe other side Talking to people get apprehensive because they envision anargument. A fight about conflict and this book and this style is reallyabout getting on the same side with the person that you're interacting withbecause in point of fact, why are the two of you talking? You're talking?Because you're both faced with different aspects of a of the sameproblem. So in fact a better outcome will come from a great collaborationand as soon as you can transform your thinking from battle to collaboration,then that begins to transform how you approach it. Why do we as organizations though? Imean, what is it about us that causes us to just want to be kind of more inan offensive play than anything else? Well, it's it's not just organizations,it's people. I mean, we're wired to be worried about combat. We're wired to beto be negative, which is going to cause us to think about combat. I mean thewiring that's in our brain from the caveman days, you know, most peoplehave heard of the amygdala and they refer to the Amygdala hijack or whenyou see red or whatever, whatever any of these things are. The wiring thatwas given to us. However many years ago we crawled out of the ocean and becamea species was designed to keep us alive and it had to be overly negative. Thatwiring is still there when in fact we actually live in an abundant positiveworld, but we can't get away from our caveman reactions. Mm right. We're heart fixed beliefs and hardwiring. Right, right. Which requires a relatively consistent but notcomplicated effort to overcome. And then you you build the habit ofconsistently overcoming that wiring. Then in a short period of time, roughlythree weeks of consistent application, then you overcome it. And that goes back to the, what is it,the average amount of time it takes to make or break a habit, You know, Andthere's some, there's some now that we have neuroscience, there's some wiringexplanation behind that. It's the number of times you fire a neuralsynapse to create a good, solid, solid...

...wiring connection and then then it doesrequire maintenance after that. It's like putting a rocket ship into orbit.It does not as much effort required to keep it in orbit, but there is someeffort required or you fall out sure. Now this makes me as I'mlistening to you, I'm thinking about a couple of different things you've said.So being mindful of just human behavior, reading signs, reading body language,uh, you know, paying attention to I guess self awareness, paying attentionto what feelings you're getting or what you're picking up on. So there's thatyou also mentioned Warren buffet as it pertains to negotiations and creating abetter deal how he would sit and listen in order to extract all of theinformation or data that he needed to make good decisions or make a good dealhappen. But but what does that really look like? So, so if you're walkinginto a room where you know it's a business meeting where you're walkinginto a hostage negotiation with a terrorist, I mean is there a startingpoint? Is there a way for you to kind of manifest your expectations? Or or doyou just kind of hope that by sitting down and listening things will go yourway you want to demonstrate right off the bat that you're there to listen andyou want to extract information in a way that doesn't feel like they'reyou're extracting information and it's a little bit different approach? It'sgetting it's actually getting away from questions, I'm going to give you a line,an opening line that you could put you could use in a business deal, you coulduse in a discussion with your spouse. And I'm not drawing any analogies here,but you can use it with a terrorist as well. Right? No analogy between spiesand terrorists, anybody runs off in that direction. All I can say is it'son you. But Amanda disclaimer disclaimer, imagine this if you sayseems like you've given this a lot of thought, who could you not say that too. Mm? It even got me thinking Uh huh seems like you've given whocould you not say that to? Yeah. Could you very specifically designedstatement word for word. Each word is designed to have a specific type ofimpact on your brain and on your emotional intelligence overall, thatstatement is not going to cause you to put your guard up, Which is step one. Now we'reinteracting. I'm interacting with you in a way. It's not only is it not goingto put your guard up? It's a great indicator that I'm actually interestedin hearing what you have to say, which is going to begin to develop a workingrelationship right off the bat. You're...

...collaborative. Uh circuits are firing.You're feeling as a potential collaboration here. You're not feelingjudged in any way, shape or form. You're not feeling like I'm conning youbecause in no way shape or form am I agreeing or disagreeing? I'm actuallydisplaying curiosity, which is people are drawn to genuine curiosity for mebeing curious about what your perspective is. Again, it doesn'tindicate I'm not trying to say I'm your friend. I'm not trying to say I'm yourenemy. I mean the middle ground right in between which is really where greatdeals are made because there's tremendous authenticity there interesting and it's got me I've justbeen taking notes ferociously because you're right as you were saying all ofthis. I'm like huh there's really no way to dispute that. You're on my terms.Yeah. Like you've just met me in the middle. Now for those that haven't readthe book yet explained the concept of never split that. Like what do you meanby never split the difference. Okay, splitting the difference is um, iseither trap or a circular death spiral. So let's go with the trap part to beginwith. There's an old saying in negotiations.The person who offers to meet you in the middle is usually a poor judge ofdistance. Okay. Yeah. So the cutthroatnegotiators, the people that anchor high, let's say I want to pay $100 forsomething And that's where I went in up. You'reasking 150, I want to pay 100. I'm gonna say, look, I'll give you, I'llgive you 50 or I'll walk away right now if I wanted to pay 100 allalong, we'll go back and forth a little bit. I'll make a show of protest, I'lldo the flinches, I do that crazy stuff that they teach and some of thoseridiculous seminars and now I'll say, I'll tell you what, why don't we splitthe difference. I'll give you 100 and you'll, and you'll feel gratified. Youfeel like it was fair. You feel like somehow we made a great deal togetherand for me it was a con all along and this happens to us all the time becauseyou know, the cutthroat negotiators typically will be in a company andsomebody that's not in the training session will seek me out at in thecafeteria and they'll say, hey, I hear you're here and I hear you're teachingpeople that uh you know, don't win, win and don't split the difference andthey'll say I do win, win negotiations and I split the difference all the timeand I'll say it and now I'm smelling this guy's a shark, I already know it.Yeah, well, you know, the negotiator offers to meet you in the middle isusually a poor judge of distance and they'll start, they'll act like Icaught them with their hand in the...

...cookie jar and I go, yeah, you know, Ialways just ask for about twice as much as I want so that I can offer to splitthe difference, say it's a win win and I get what I want to walk away. It's acomplete con, right? So let's problem, want to split the difference problem tosplit the difference. Danny Kahneman won the Nobel Prize in2002 for something called Prospect Theory, Nobel prize and behavioraleconomics because this is how all human beings are wired all human beings A L Ldoesn't matter if you're african asian latino western european, you know,arctic Eskimo, it doesn't matter, lost things twice as much as anequivalent game And actually, you know when, which means if you lose $5,you're gonna feel like you gave up 10 and I remember reading watching aninterview that Professor Kahneman gave at one point in time, he said, you know,Amos and I, when we thought this up, it's not twice as much, it's five timesas much. We just wanted fewer arguments from our colleagues. So we lowered thenumber twice as much. So it's actually more than that. What does that mean? Ifwe meet in the middle, I'm not going to feel that I met you in the middle. Myskewed version because I'm a human being is that I gave up twice as muchas I got. Even if it was a complete total exchange of value now, because Ifeel like I gave up double what I actually gave up. I'm going to beresentful and spiteful and I'm gonna try and pay you back. Revenge is a dishbest served. Cold. Right? I'm gonna I'm gonna wait for my opportunity to payyou back. Now. As soon as I pay you back, you're gonna feel stunned. Whatwas fair about that? What are you doing? What are you doing reneging on the deal?What are you doing going sideways now? The other side is mad. And that's whyit becomes a death spiral. You know, there was this uh there's an oldcartoon about a husband and a wife. It was called the lock horns. Somebodyshared that with me um just a couple of weeks ago. And it's it's from like the1970s. I don't know. But the caption was a husband, wife we're talking andthe husband says, why don't we split the difference, then we'll both beunhappy. Yeah. Right, lose lose times four. Yeah.And then what happens with lose, lose, what happens to your long term businessrelationships? What happens with your desire to collaborate with that personwhen the opportunity's come up? Because if they're in, if you dealt withsomebody wants, they're in your environment, they're in your universethere in your monetary ecosystem, you're gonna again, you're going to seethem again. And it's funny too because you know, asyou say that I can think of individuals who I'm just like, man, I I I triedforever to get into their books and now I wish they'd just lose my phone number,you know, uh and it's really that kind...

...of scenario where I go, oh man. Andit's going to be, it would be very difficult at this point in time forthem to shift their perception that I have of them based on how they dealtwith me. Whether it was too forceful, whether it was this con essentiallythat they were trying to get me to do things they wanted and you know,meeting in the middle and all this. And it wasn't really a reality at all thatresidue just doesn't go away. No, it doesn't. I mean even after andI'll be totally honest, some of them have had their come to jesus and I'veturned my life to God and all these sorts of things and you're still,there's still this piece of me that's just like ah but have you, have you.And so I agree with you. The residue there is is pretty insane. And so, youknow, I love what you're saying about uh and you talk about you talk aboutthis in the book, right? So uh right back to the the word track that yougave us of basically, how do you how do you essentially sayit? It's like I love the word tactical, I don't know why, but it's basicallytactical empathy. Uh just the idea of like you said, I'mnot agreeing with you, I'm not necessarily agreeing with you and I'mnot necessarily on your side, but just displaying genuine curiosity uh meansthat I'm positioning myself to not have to um to not have to con you intogetting my way, because then that means I want and you lost essentially. Right?And you know, there's there's two problems with that approach which a lotof people do Con number one, the con is gonna wear off and they're gonna wakeup my way, they're gonna resent that, you know, and and so if it's not acollaborative interaction where they contributed, they got no ownership,they've got no ownership, it's your way and they're going to resent it. So if Imay go back to a little bit because I'm really happy that you picked up on aword tactical and the real reason that we put that in there as part of ourdefinition is nearly every negotiation book out therewas written before, we actually knew how to the brain work via neuroscience,like the neuroscience data that we have now. It's not that old. It's we startedgetting solid neuroscience data probably about 2012, relatively recently, where we can seehow the brain actually works in our application of this thing calledempathy. What is this thing? Empathy is based on, we know how the brain worksand if you know how it works, if you've been given a roadmap to not just theinterplay of emotions and thinking, but how to dial certain things up and dialcertain things down, principally dialing down negativity. Let's use ittactically. If we understand how it works, let's just let's just use ourunderstanding and that's why we use the...

...word tactical. So and it's in it andit's in that empathy because I feel like sometimes we maybe missmisappropriate how empathy. What happened is exactly we think it's thislike um subservient. Oh I'm empathizing with Oh I I understand you know that'sat least that's maybe I'm just the weird one, but that's kind of the wayit always feels like you hear a lot of business leaders on stage and they'relike empathy wins the day. And then you hear them explain empathy and you'relike, hi you you basically described sympathy. But empathy. So as itpertains to you in your field, from your vantage point, what really isempathy and and because I mean it really is basically in the word trackyou gave us as it pertains to the book. That is that's an empathetic play. Butthere but it's for a reason. Yeah. Well empathy is the demonstration ofunderstanding in particular aspects of that understanding that might benegative towards us. You begin to look fearless when you acknowledge thenegativity towards you. It's the it's the operational implementation ofcubbies, guidance from way back Stephen Covey seek first to understand then beunderstood. All right. So it's not just understanding but demonstrating whatyou perceive that understanding to be. And so that's a two millimeter shift.It's a demonstration of understanding which means there's no attachment,there's no judgment, there's no agreement, there's no disagreement. Ican understand where you're coming from without agreeing or disagreeing. DanielGoleman wrote a book called Focus, I think 20, it's either 2012 or 2009. Andone of his chapters in a gold mine of course, the guy who coined the phraseof emotional intelligence, one of his chapter's called the empathytriad. The three types of empathy and he defines one type is cognitiveempathy, which is just darn close to exactly what we're talking about hereand it's just a complete and total understanding of where someone iscoming from. Not adopting their emotions in any way, shape or form. Butbeing completely aware of them. You don't have to adopt them to be aware ofthem. And if you could do that then empathy becomes an unlimited skill, okay? Which is so, oh man, it's sovaluable. Especially in today's at least North America's social climatewhere you're either right or you're wrong and there's no, there's not evena middle, there's not even any place for us to meet on common ground. Thereis just you are nuts or you're crazy and we have this big back and forthwhere what you're saying is basically, and I can only imagine actually, Ican't even imagine some of the situations that you found yourself inand negotiating things as as an FBI...

...agent where if you were to absorb theirfeeling and and start to agree with what they were feeling, um you'd be apretty messed up dude. Yeah, it's just it's just insane. That's an insaneapproach to try to absorb and agree. Yeah, and that's where I thinkthe misunderstanding of empathy comes because they go, oh you're an empath,you can absorb, you know what people are feeling, but what you're saying isno, I can I can show empathy by demonstrating that I understand whereyou're coming from without actually absorbing the feeling or adopting orconverting to your way of beliefs, right? Complete and total awarenessdoes not cause it does not mean that you have to shoulder, you have to beaware of it. I mean different analogies Help people get it in different ways. Ifirst learned this approach when I volunteered at a crisis hotline back inthe 1990s and they told us back then if somebody's in quicksand, you don't helpthem by getting into the quicksand with them, right? And and the guy inQuicksand, if he wants out of the quicksand, you don't want you jumpingin with him. That doesn't do him any good. Now we're both the quicksand whenwe're both screwed, get back out of here and throw me a rope, you know pullme out but don't don't jump in here with me. It doesn't help me, right? So now you're you're in anegotiation uh and you want to make a deal happen. Obviously you understandthe implications from the business side. Like hey if the if we can make a dealhappen, this is positive. If if we can make a deal happen or the customer'sgoing, of course if we can make a deal happen, I get what I want as well. UmBut you talk about there that there are different words that can be used tomake the negotiations go much more smoothly or in order to effectivelycommunicate with the other party. Um You talk about fair ah The F. Word Fbomb. Yeah the f the F bomb. The negotiation. Why is that? Like what isit about that word that makes it so powerful. Well first of all it comes upin every every negotiation. He just comes up all the time. You know, I lovewhen I run across people who are seasoned negotiators. I'm sitting atbreakfast yesterday with a uh Hollywood insider who's been here for a long timehas made his bones and it's a great reputation if nothing else with all thebad reputations in Hollywood. This guy is got a great reputation for dealing withpeople quote fairly. And we're sitting atbreakfast just getting to know each other and we talk about negotiationsand he says, my side knows that when I say this is unfair, we are just about to walk out of theroom and I just remember thinking like yeahman, I'm telling you what if you're telling me in deals for you know, $100million movies you're dropping yet bomb...

...then everybody does so All right. Sothe original question, what does that mean? If I say I just want what's fairI'm accusing you of being unfair. Sure. And that jabs people instantly. It'sit's you know what my friends, Sheila Heen and Doug Stone would refer to intheir book difficult conversations that causes an identity quake. It can rattleus. So and people throw out, you know saying this is unfair. I just wantwhat's fair one of 2 ways um intentionally it's so powerful. Itknocks people off their feet and often you know, it's like strategic umbridgefalse anger. I can get my way with you in this deal and it will bother you fora very long time and of course I'll pay for it. So um I can do it can manipulate you orsome people when they've been pushed too far and they're trying to dealhonestly and they just don't know what's wrong. They will drop the f bomb and it's a really bad sign because theyfeel misused by so you've got to really be aware of when it's being used andwho's using it and line up as to, you know, do they really feel like I'mcheating them because I got to make some adjustments if I if they do feelthat way or they trying to cut my throat, you got to know which one ofthose two they are, right? And so you, because I even notice andI'm like slapping myself, I say I don't say it all the time, but I do say it onoccasion and now, you know, after I've I've learned about this, I go, oh man,there's probably way better words I could have or better terms that I couldhave expressed myself and then just like implying, you know, I'm going tobe fair now, but I wasn't being fair before there's all sorts ofimplications like that when you start getting into it, you know what you'reimplying and the other side is picking up is exactly right couple of more questions for you, kindof continuing down this thought. Um, Most deals, especially as it pertainsto business and as car dealers are thinking about this, they're probably,you know, they're listening and they're going well, Michael, okay, well, if Idon't speak in monetary terms and what's fair and all these sorts ofthings, how do, how can I make a deal happen if I'm to kind of pivot aroundthis in a more, let's call it creative way without necessarily talking inmonetary terms or what not. Um, Most people, I just want to be hurt. So whatever that percentage is, whetherit's 1% or whether it's 90% sure my...

...money is important enough to me, thenI'm not gonna part with any of it. If I can preserve it by hearing the otherside out. That's why it's my first move. That's the cheapest thing I can do. Mymoney is important to me. Plus if I'm throwing money at the problem, if I'mmaking monetary moves concessions when the other side just wants to be heard, then I'm applying the wrong medicine,so they're still going to be unhappy and it's still going, it's still goingto uh, not bear well from a long time. You know, people want to trust theother side. Trust, take the word trust out, put in a word predictable, become predictable for you. The same,become steady, become reliable. Don't make them wonder what they're gettingin the exchange that will save your dollars. I mean negotiation greatnegotiation skills are really for people that want to stop wasting theirmoney trying to throw money at solutions when money wasn't called forin the first place. My money is important enough to me. I like keepingin my bank account. Sure. And so the assumption most of us assume while thisis a sales deal or this is a business transaction or some sort of somethingwhere there will be benefit, let's just automatically go to money. Because weassume everybody, that's the thing people care about most when it you knowit does for something like you're saying and it may not for others it's alazy move. Just just really lazy and the percentage of time when it doesn'tactually solve the problem is high enough that I want to I want to makesure I'm using the right solution. Yeah, I love it. Last question for youbefore we wind this thing down, I've absolutely loved this conversation. Yeah. You talk about, I mean this isthis all really comes down to communication when it's whether it'slooking somebody in the eye whether it's sensing what they're getting at orunderstanding their feelings or any of these things. You talk about how mostcommunication is nonverbal. Uh and and so anybody in this kind ofposition of I guess I don't know the right words to use controlling thenegotiation or being in charge of or being a steward of the negotiation, youtalk about how they should develop the ability to uh understand or interpretbody language, but not just body language, also tone of voice. How doeshow do you do that? What should be looking for? Because we here this wholetime. It sounds cool. Oh yeah, interpret body language. I wouldn'thonestly I wouldn't even know the first thing about what I should be lookingfor. All right, So the hack is it's winterthings out of line. Um This is one of the things that Italked about in my ted talk. You know, a polygraph doesn't look forall your different tells. A polygrapher...

...puts you on the box and ask you aseries of control questions. So you can see what you look like when you'retelling the truth? Like you might have seven ways you lie, but you've got oneway you tell the truth. If you tell the truth, you've got one way to tell thetruth. And then of course, if you don't tell the truth, you're never analignment consistently on truth questions and you know that the personis deceptive all the time. That's what that means. So, you sit down in apolygraph, they say, what's your name? What day is it? Where are you would youhave for breakfast? All questions that in advance we know what the answers are.And I want to see what you're gonna look like when you tell the truth, thenwhen we move forward, all I got to know is that you're out of line now you pickthis up in your individual interactions. That's why, you know, we want to go todinner with somebody, we want to have social conversations. Hey, you know howmany kids you got, you know, where are they in school? You know, this socialinteractions is also our subconscious mind, which is ridiculously powerful.Computer Is picking up what they look like when they're being genuine, youknow? Yeah, I just got one son, he's 33 works in my business. You know,whatever the answer might be, you're starting to get a gut instinct of whatI look like when I'm being genuine. Now, you don't have to, you don't have toknow what all the different ways I might be deceptive. But the minute Icome out of that, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna start to get afunny feeling, gonna start to wonder most people, you know, I got to givethe benefit of data, it's me, you know, I need another cup of coffee or youknow, whatever it is. But in point of fact, they've come out of their truththe line so you don't have to learn all the body language. You just gotta letthe super computer that is, your intuition begin to pick up the data andthen once you understand it also that it's an issue of alignment. Then whenthey're out of line, you know, there's a problem. Mhm. Yeah, I'm Michel Cirillo and you'vebeen listening to the dealer Playbook podcast. If you haven't yet, pleaseclick the subscribe button wherever you're listening right now, leave arating or review and share it with a colleague. Thanks for listening. Mm hmm.

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